Intertek's Assurance in Action Podcast Network
Intertek's Assurance in Action Podcast Network
The Future of Renewable Fuels: Innovations and Challenges
Series: Future Fuels
We're excited to launch a special Assurance in Action series on Future Fuels.
In the first episode, Intertek Caleb Brett experts Liam Mills and Mike Koziar dive into the evolving landscape of Renewable Fuels discussing the innovations and challenges the market faces while moving toward alternative energy sources.
Speakers:
- Mike Koziar – Director of Renewable Fuels
- Liam Mills, Sustainable Hydrocarbon Specialist
Don’t miss this engaging conversation—listen now! 🎧
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Welcome to the latest episode of Intertek's Assurance In Action. My name is Caitlin Connell, and I'm the Director of Global Marketing for Intertek Caleb Brett. Today we're diving into the future of renewable fuels, innovations and challenges with two industry leaders, and my colleagues from Intertek Caleb Brett. Joining us are Liam Mills, Sustainable Hydrocarbon Specialist and an expert in sustainable energy solutions, and Mike Koziar, director of Renewable fuels. Together, they'll share, they'll shed light on the transformative technologies driving renewable fuels, the hurdles we need to overcome and what the future holds for this pivotal industry. Whether you're a professional in the energy sector, we're just curious about the past to a sustainable future. This episode is for you. Let's get started. Liam, could you kick us off with a brief explanation of what renewable fuels are and their significance in reducing carbon emissions?
Liam Mills:Yes, Caitlin. So renewable fuels are materials which are, have been developed through using processors which do not use crude oil from fossil sources. Therefore, the, the CO2 that would be emitted from burning these fuels as effectively recycled within, within the atmosphere. The, the, the most common one that people have probably heard about most recently is sustainable aviation fuel, where plants and bio biogenic material is being converted into aviation fuel. And then that CO2 is then, then that material is then burnt in an airplane engine, and then the CO2 is then reabsorbed by plants for further processing.
Caitlin Connell:And are there competition for renewable fuels?
Liam Mills:I'm sure we're all aware that the landscape of the fuels that we use generally for road transport is changing, most likely in the, in the medium term for, for personal transport. Electric vehicles will, will take over. But there, there is a, a larger issue with what's known as the hard to hard to abate sectors such as road transport sorry, heavy transport marine fuels and aviation. These are unlikely to be suitable for electrification. And the and the development of hydrogen proportion is, is still a long way off yet.
Mike Koziar:I guess also to contribute to that, there's also the nuclear wind, solar tidal energy sources that we also need to consider as renewable. And these will mainly be used to power the power grid and the homes and the factories and the manufacturing sector that is kind of prevalent in every economy. So also another bit of competition there. I don't see renewable fuels of biogenic content being able to support that very well.
Caitlin Connell:And what types of fuels are considered renewable?
Liam Mills:So there's a number of different groups of biofuels based on their historic production. So what we would term as first generation biofuels are what, what we would generally fill our cars at the filling station today. So bioethanol blended with gasoline and fame blended with diesel. However, there's a, there's a large number of second generation biofuels that are, are entering the market such as hydrogenated vegetable oil or HVA with a diesel replacement or gasoline that's been created directly from waste through, through a a multi-step process. There's a number of different processes that are in development at the moment, and, and the, the, the one that catches all the news is the, the e fuels or synthetic fuels that are being developed, which enables the production of hydrocarbons solely from green hydrogen and, and CO2 literally creating fuel outta thin air. But there are other, other potential biofuels or, or renewable fuels that can be created such as blending paralysis soils with marine fuel, which will offer a quite a CO2 reduction or a CO2 a net a negative CO2 emission over the hydrocarbon equivalent. These processes produce the, the fuels that I just talked about, but generally, they would produce a synthetic crude, similar to a crude oil that is, that is extracted out of the ground across the world today. And these synthetic crude would be then distilled into the products that as we know them today,
Mike Koziar:It's probably all so worth mentioning that in especially paralysis or creation, this doesn't just extend to renewable fuels in terms of the stuff you put into transport and you know, the, the heating and the manufacturing sectors as mentioned previously by also creates very useful materials such as biochar, which could also be applied as farming fertilizer. So there is a further cyclical economy, which is powered by the creation of these renewable fuels.
Caitlin Connell:Thank you. It sounds like the industry is constantly evolving and changing. Now let's talk about some hot topics around feedstock availability. What are you seeing as supply chain challenges and are there solutions to the problems faced by the market?
Mike Koziar:In general? Yes. So basically if we take a look at feedstock availability and sustainability, what we tend to notice is that, of course, use cooking oil, which is a primary source of feedstock into sort of blended fuels is a finite resource, and they're usually quite difficult to get. And what we mean by this is that the supplies vary nation by nation. The quality varies nation by nation, and usually it's dispersed across wide geographical areas because it comes from essentially restaurants where you would require big amalgamation contractors and trucks, riding around restaurants, collecting all this feedstock. And then basically you know, putting this into a processing facility in order for then it to be exported. A lot of this product currently comes from the likes of Malaysia Vietnam China you know, and, and, and other, and other sources in Asia Pacific. But of course we can't also exclude the US and Brazil and Europe because they also produce similar sorts of feed stocks, which could potentially be amalgamated as well to produce large quantities of fuel. On top of this, we've also got the standard sort of plant or plant feed stocks which also kind of are, are farmed, and this take up quite a lot of space. And as a result of that, what we're seeing at the moment is that there is a big push to potentially reduce land usage through sort of growing these feedstocks, especially things like palm oil, for example to allow people to actually grow food and not compete with you know, the food supply. Having said this you know, just looking at general kind of supply picture what we are seeing is a lot of nations thanks to a lot of sort of government support and mandates are stepping up and starting to move in much more into sort of feedstock production. And as a result of that, we are seeing an increased volume becoming available for producers and processors.
Caitlin Connell:Liam you mentioned paralysis oils previously. Could you expand on that?
Liam Mills:Yeah. So the, the paralysis oil production process is, is quite interesting. It can be generally split into three different areas. You can, you can produce paralysis oil from, from directly from waste tires from pla everyday plastics, plastic bottles, plastic bags, et cetera. But, but also from woody residues. So these feedstocks effectively do not have a any competition in the, in the market and, and regulation requires something to be done with them rather than being burnt as waste or, or sent to landfill. So the paralysis oil production process is quite innovative in not only providing a potential carbon reduc carbon emission reduction, but also reducing the amount of waste that, that is required to be processed. As I, as I mentioned competition for feedstocks can be quite intense, and when the supply chain becomes quite strained, fraud can become an issue.
Mike Koziar:Yes , I second that. So we're seeing , uh, quite a lot of concern around basically , uh, fraud and adulteration from our clients. And here at Intertek, we have been developing fairly innovative solutions to produce a flagging system and potentially design an adulteration tool that will later help the entire industry , uh, detect this. The problem with fraud is, of course, it can lead to reputational damage and commercial loss for our clients, but also it brings the market , uh, confidence down because people don't actually understand what they're buying as a result of that. What we really do need to take a look at is how we rigorously manage the supply chain , uh, and the chain of custody. And for that , uh, what we are doing is we are at the same time developing technological solutions and also process solutions with some of our partners to ensure that , uh, we reduce the risk of fraud and adulteration as much as possible, especially from high risk regions like the , uh, far East lim. It's probably worth mentioning Carbon 14 as well. Do you wanna take our listeners through it?
Liam Mills:Yeah. So Intertek, we've invested in carbon 14 analysis. This is the only way where you could actually confirm that a material is made up of non-fossil carbon. It is based on a, on the, the radioactive decay of a carbon isotope which is only only found in the atmosphere. So any fossil carbon that you, that is in, is contained within a product, contains no carbon, 14. So the industry can determine whether a, whether a, a feedstock or a fuel is is sustainable or, or renewable by this means
Mike Koziar:Excellent. And of course, we can't really exclude policy frameworks, right? So one of the main policy frameworks is actually owned and being developed by the ISCC the sort of certifying body that we all know and love. But in general this works hand in hand with government mandates and the control processes which are implemented at a local level. I'll probably leave policy frameworks for now because this will be part of a secondary podcast on sustainability regulatory frameworks.
Caitlin Connell:Can you tell me a little bit more about the technology solutions and any advancements in the waste to fuel technology or synthetic biology?
Liam Mills:Yeah, so there's, there's numerous companies around the globe at the moment looking to produce what I say, turn in things that aren't fuel into fuel. And there's some quite innovative, innovative processes using, using waste or plastic to produce fuels. There, there's processes out there trying to turn manure into fuels. There's even one, there's even one that is that has seen reasonable success with turning human waste into fuels, which I'm sure every, everyone will be pleased that they can provide a, a sample towards. But also there is a there is a big movement in the, in the waste CO2 market. So effectively industrial processes that cannot use that have to use fossil sources for their processes. The, the CO2 can be captured and then reused as a fuel while whilst that may not necessarily have a, have a carbon emission reduction, it obviously prevents further fossil crude oil to be, to be extracted from the ground. Meaning that we, that we eventually move towards a, a carbon net zero process whilst, whilst there is in those industrial processes, there's also biological emission emissions of CO2. If we have a number of power stations, for example, that work off wood chips and these can these can be truly carbon negative in that the, the trees that have, that were used to produce the produce the carbon wood chips have obviously extracted CO2 at the atmosphere. And then if we capture that, that CO2 and use it for something else, whether that's a fuel or a, or a another oil-based product, then that, that can produce a carbon negative material. In addition, as I, as I've mentioned previously, the liquid plastic waste processing prevents the waste being used being effectively burned just to get rid of it and can produce a circular economy either for plastics or for, or for fuels. However, these processes do have some challenges. Most of them have high energy inputs, and there is a requirement for green or renewable energy, either through solar, wind or other green sources of electricity. But also, the majority of these processes need new production facilities to be built. So whilst they're at a, a research and development phase now, it's unlikely that there'll be, they'll be online in the next couple of years to really make an impact in the carbon emissions over the next couple of years.
Caitlin Connell:How do we know that the finished fuels meet , um, the standards of quality and performance that are needed?
Liam Mills:At Intertek, we test and certify fuels such as gasoline and diesel to national international standards on a daily basis. So whether it's a renewable fuel or a fossil based fuel, we're gonna follow the same process. So the confidence can be there that it, that they when a certificate is, has been produced that the qua the fuel will meet the accepted quality when it comes to sustainable aviation fuel. However, the production is controlled by the A SDM technical panel and the pathway has to be approved. Currently, there is only 11 pathways approved, and, and as it stands, the majority of sustainable aviation fuel is only produced through one of those pathways. There is a, a lengthy process of testing both in the laboratory and with aircraft manufacturers and aircraft ending manufacturers to ensure that any fuel that is produced as a sustainable aviation fuel meets the, the appropriate criteria to be able to fly over, over significant differences especially over oceans, et cetera. So there, so the users and, and people flying can be, can be rest assured that there's been a significant amount of work to qualify these sustainable aviation fuels prior to their, the, the large scale production and the and the pumping of these fuels into, into an airplane.
Caitlin Connell:Are there any engine compatibility issues that may be seen?
Liam Mills:So generally, no. When, when it comes to when it comes to these fuels the ENG engine the engines that will be approved for their use will be, will be purely compatible. Again, when it comes to sustainable aviation fuel, that is slightly different. So the majority of sustainable aviation fuel will be blended with fossil jets. That's because as it stands today, the processes that are approved aren't compatible, aren't truly compatible with the engine and the properties of the fossil jet fossil fuel the fossil derived fuel are required to maintain the compatibility with the engine. Whilst the sustainable aviation fuel provides the reduction in, in carbon emissions, there is a drive in the industry to produce what is known as a hundred percent leak SAF at the moment. It's unlikely that that's going to happen anytime in the, in the near future. But there is work ongoing with the ASTM technical committee and the, and the aircraft OEMs to review what is required to ensure a hundred percent meet staff can fly with a truly compatible engine.
Caitlin Connell:Mike, could you tell us more about the cost competitiveness for the industry between these renewable fuels and more traditional fuels?
Mike Koziar:Yeah, sure. So fossil fuels has a fairly established market, so we all know how they're priced, and there's a lot of transparency in a lot of marketplace. Of course, we have the standard market dynamics such as supply and demand, as well as geopolitical factors, which are happening recently that have created some challenges in fossil fuels. Whereas in comparison to, to that the renewables fueled market is reasonably nascent. It's still developing. There is a lot more factors to take into consideration as a result of that. So to name, but a few, I think, you know, what we need to take a look at is exactly what kind of renewable fuel you are producing. So whether it's biodiesel or bio ethanol or sustainable aviation fuels in this case, or even pyrosis oils which will then later be synthesized into synthetic fuels. You know, what kind of feedstocks are you using? Are you using just the sort of grain alcohol, corn or is it more difficult? As we mentioned, eco is kind of collected from restaurants by amalgamation contracts you know, what kind of government policies have you got in terms of support? Are there subsidies or tax incentives? So I'll mention that in a second. In, in the next stage, and of course basically, you know, then we need to factor in the, the, the market dynamics that I've just mentioned. So in general what I'd say is that renewable fuels as a result carry quite a large premium compared to fossil fuels. And this is really much down to exactly those factors mentioned. The one thing that would really help in this case to kind of create a level playing field, I think is continuous investment in sort of technology the availability of the feedstocks, and of course government incentives to ensure that you know bio biodiesel, for example, will be on par with diesel. And the only way we can do this is by you know, going through all the steps and you know, all reaching sort of global market consensus on how that can be best achieved.
Caitlin Connell:You mentioned economic incentives. Can you elaborate more on that?
Mike Koziar:Yeah, certainly. I mean, there's quite a few now developing across the globe. And basically I think there is a very much a carrot or stick picture forming. So I'll probably say subsidies is the carrot and mandates are the stick. But in general, what we're current to current currently seeing in terms of, let's say, market-based mechanisms is mandates in terms of, you know, certain percentage of electricity you know fuel or, or transportation fuel that comes from renewable sources that could be mandated. You could have certain blend mandates. You can have sort of tariffs, which could basically allow the renewable energy producers to benefit from producing the renewable energy and putting that into the, the national grid. In terms of government support, you have things like subsidies, so basically government grants and payments, which are provided to renewable fuel producers. You could have tax credits, so a reduction in tax liability, for example, for importing a very high quality feedstock, which could be used to produce biodiesel, for example, or gasoline more easily. And of course, there's other government support for development or r and d or potentially even constructing sort of the renewable fuels plants from pilot stage into, you know commercial production stage, which could also be discussed. There's also things that exist outside of this, which is, I'll probably say a little bit more of indirect support. And this is really to do with the very active carbon trading market. So this allows large sort of renewable fuels producers and actually small ones as well to produce renewable fuels and benefit from carbon credits, which then could be traded on the open market to customers that don't necessarily have the capabilities to produce renewable fuels and reduce their carbon emissions. The governments are currently doing a lot around infrastructure investments, so basically around transportation of the fuel storage of the fuels, and basically other sort of things to aid the distribution network to ensure those fuels reach the end customer. And as mentioned before companies like Intertek are proudly supporting a lot of the big players in the market right now in terms of r and d support, right? So this, this can also be funded through the government, of course, but you know people work with intech for a reason, and r and d inter renewable fuels is actually one of those.
Caitlin Connell:So all of these things must affect market adoption. What are you seeing as the major barriers?
Mike Koziar:Yeah, this is this is quite an interesting topic. So I think the most evident barrier here is the higher costs, right? So I, I know that traditional fossil fuel extraction is not exactly a cheap business, but when you're talking about innovative technology or setting up some of these sorts of renewable fuel facilities, especially the ones that synthesize the fuel as opposed to just blend it and process it, then we're talking about substantially riskier investments than in, into the traditional sort of fossil fuel industry. And the reason why is because a lot of the technology that is currently being deployed is still very much at the innovative stage, and there is no guarantee of success. So at the moment, what we have seen in sort of the earlier years as this market was sort of being built up we have seen a lot of venture capital support for certain marketplace. Which unfortunately in the end, were not able to reach the commercial stage. There are also other issues which also kind of sit on top of the higher costs, but actually kind of almost build into it. And this is really to do with the infrastructure limitations, which are current we currently seeing pretty much all over the world, right? Let's you know, take Chi China and India aside for a second by just focusing on those sort of the, the main markets such as Europe, which is an age market sets up for the fossil fuel industry, predominantly what we need is significant investments into things such as storage facilities again, distribution networks, because these things can't go into the same pipelines as normal fossil fuels without, you know, processing and blending, of course. And as a result of that there is a little bit of a disconnect. There is no seamless integration in terms of how these fuels are stored, blended, transported, handled because even in terms of, you know, transporting them by vessel you, you'd need a, a different fleet from your standard product fleet, for example. And of course, because the market is also new another economic factor, which is kind of concerning some of our key players is market volatility. So this is really to do with, again, supply and demand, right? So we know that fossil fuels are influenced by market di market dynamics, the standard market dynamics, and of course, geopolitical events. This is actually very similar to renewable feed stocks, right? And in this case, for example, with the likes of finite feed stocks such as you know, the usual sort of either field grown field stocks or use cooking oils, for example, they're a finite resource. And of course, if there is a drought in any way, shape, or form, or there is too much competition, then what you'll see is the prices increasing. And that would put some people off because it means that they're paying a lot more for the feedstock to produce the end product for the, for, for the customers. I'd like to also briefly touch on kind of technological challenges. And this is really down to, you know, again, what I mentioned previously it, a lot of the companies that we're dealing with are in scale up stage. And of course that means that what they're doing right now is potentially running a pilot plant, and it's taking some time to then prove and go through all the sort of regulatory complexity, let's say, around sort of getting the product reach certified, getting the product ICC certified, which will then allow them to seek final investment into the proper set sort of scale up commercial production. And this is, this is fairly common, and this is where a lot of the customers or clients or, or companies in general will fall short. And this is really down to, you know, again, VCs demanding quite a lot from the companies, but also in general the technology sometimes not being able to produce commercial volumes using a certain pathway, for example as we learned in sustainable aviation fuels. And of course once again, I need to mention feedstock availability, because not everybody is able to secure the supply or outcompete some of the larger players in the market. Finally it, it does bring me to, to certain important things around regulation and policy and also sort of customer acceptance. So first of all, regulations are around feedstocks and final products are usually fairly complex. So sustainable aviation fuels aren't easy to get to market, and it requires a lot of sort of hurdles to come to cross, especially if you are producing synthetic ESAP. So because you all need to do reach on, on, on that product and that can entail a, a whole plethora of tests. And of course you know, even if, even with you know, the likes of biodiesel and bioethanol, you'll still need to ICC it. It will need to comply. You'll need to have all the appropriate certification before that could be sold on to market, and you can claim your carbon credits and subsidies or tax relief. And of course, what we've learned also recently is that in some locations where the market is protected, there are trade barriers. So this could be in the form of tariffs or quotas or sometimes even sanctions in terms of what a renewable fuels could be important or not. In terms of consumers, it's a little bit different. It's just basically lack of awareness. Some consumers don't really understand sort of the the green footprint of, of the fuel and, and some people just generally don't want to pay extra for, for that, for that product. So a lot of that needs to be driven sort of by also the government implementing policies that encourage people to take up the consumption of renewable fuels. Course you can also, you can't also really ignore the mental factors of things like, for example potentially range anxiety. People think that, you know, if they're buying greener, it means it's not as good as the fossil fuel, so they're going to go shorter distances, for example. Or some people have safety concerns. So if you're using sustainable aviation fuels just due to lack of understanding, people might necessarily feel as safe to fly as they did previously when we, when we all used Jet A one. And finally in, in some locations, it's, again, down to infrastructure. Some people just don't have the capability to purchase renewable fuels. So all this kind of, I suppose, fits into the pluses and minuses of market adoption, right? And in, in this case, there are, there are, there are lots of things that we need to consider and, and overcome before the market fully accepts renewable fuels as the way of the future. So, I guess the next question you're gonna ask me, Caitlin, is probably around solutions. So there are a lot of partnerships right now between the private sector the government and academia in terms of, you know, how we get to you know, the, the cop 28 commitments for, for 2050. And of course, what we're currently focusing on is things like the r and d which I mentioned before. So Intertek is very heavily participating in, in the market around sort of the r and d space, and we're supporting a lot of our clients to get those fuels to market or to get those fuels approved by various government institutions. We are working with our clients to train their staff to ensure that they know exactly what kind of specifications they need to blend the fuel to, for example, or potentially even teaching them about sort of the specs that are prevalent in certain regions. So this, this is really mainly down to like, you know, if you're purchasing the feedstocks for the blending. Of course, we have various business units in Intertek as well, like business assurance and caliber Brett where we have experts consulting on certification potentially how to get various other bits done like for example, carbon modeling or understanding how the implications of C14 testing. And of course, our caliber experts are pretty much involved in the full, the, the chain in terms of, you know helping people understand how the product is stored, how the product is handled, how the product is blended, and of course testing on export or imports. So you know, we're, we're offering the full package there. Our colleagues in is as well, are also worth mentioning because basically they are probably the initiators. They're the people that will reach out to our clients and support them in terms of consultation in pilot plant construction or commercial plant construction. They help these people get off the ground and ensure they have the right expertise to you know, get, get to the commercial stage of renewable fuel production. And finally, of course another unique service, well, not unique service, but another very good quality service that Intertek offers is outsourcing. So a lot of these plants, they come up without necessarily having laboratories close by. They're usually in remote locations where they can maximize sort of either the location in terms of logistics for the feed stocks, or potentially sources of renewable energy. So we do tend to offer outsourcing services to organizations that do require quality testing on site and, and of course, problem resolution in the event. There's something along the production. And this, this certainly goes quite, quite a way to then you know, helping the products get to market helping the investors feel more confident in our clients you know, that I could potentially be starting up. It goes some way to reassuring our large larger clients to, to know that their product is on spec and meets government sort of re regulations and requirements. And of course, it allows us to participate and work with academia to ensure that you know, the, the group think around sort of how we get to you know, a greener, more renewable world all, all those steps can, can be taken and of course adopted by the market.
Caitlin Connell:So it's clear that there's a need for more renewable fuels. Can you tell me a little bit more about the barriers to scaling up production?
Mike Koziar:Yeah, certainly. So we kind of covered it briefly sort of in the top in, in the, in the sections previously, but I think one of the biggest barriers to scaling up production is that a lots of people are trying to do a lot of new things. And this is kind of scary because when it comes down to securing VC capital, just in general capital investment that requires a lot of let's say some costs initially, because, you know, you do want to build a pilot plant, you do want to ensure that it's producing the right products before you're scaling up commercially. And as a result of that, a lot of people are wary of taking on too much risk. I'd probably say there's also an issue around sort of working capital, because a lot of these organizations will likely be operating with quite a lot of debt, and the product will not immediately be able to be sold onto the market because, as mentioned previously, requires a lot of certification and requires a lot of compliance. It requires a lot of testing before it's, you know, available for, for distribution into sort of, especially the technology's newer, innovative, a lot of our, sort of the people in the industry they, they struggle to secure enough capital investment in general. The other bits, of course, feedstock availability, which is, again, we've discussed this before. This is really down to exactly where you are located and how well you can compete for feedstocks. And in very competitive economies. This would be difficult because a lot of that supply will go to the large established players. And of course you know, market volatility also comes into play because if government policy is not aligned or not, not let's say supportive of the growth of, of that industry, then it becomes more challenging because you'll have players that are benefiting from subsidies and investments and, and other potential, you know, discounts that are competing for the same sort of feedstock availability. In terms of technology as well. You know, you can't really, I'm sure Liam has already mentioned there's probably about you know, 14 Liam. How many pathways are there now? 14, 16 in terms of 11, I believe. Yeah, there's 11 pathways to produce sustainable aviation fuels each being more efficient than the other and, you know, sometimes very difficult to compare. So a lot of a lot of, sort of the guidance that we provide are basically around guiding our customers through you know, creating efficiency within their processes in terms of creating these renewable fuels. The other, the other bit that is sometimes difficult is the byproducts that are produced. So we have, we have had cases where products produce a lot more unexpected product than the product that was actually required. And as a result of that, you know, we need to potentially take a look at how this is in terms how this impacts the environment again, and what kind of production processes we need to put into place to ensure that the right product is produced instead of the wrong byproduct. And that could actually, again require quite substantial investment if, if the if the technology is not necessarily ready for, for that kind of production chain. Finally, in terms of, you know policy and regulation, I think a lot of our customers are sometimes dealing with the hurdle of getting the right type of permits. Some of the products that are stored are not very pleasant, and as a result of that, they could impact sort of residential areas with pungent smells, for example, or maybe concern or concerns around air quality or health and safety. There's of course things that we mentioned previously like trade barriers you know, tariffs and quotas and potentially even sanctions on products where the market is protected and certain countries aren't allowed to, for example export certain products, or sorry, certain countries aren't allowed to import products which impacts the export program of another country but are allowed to import others, which means that, you know, it could influence other economies. But in this case trade barriers means that, you know, if you are, for example, producing a country with trade barriers or exporting the country or trade barriers that could limit your business activities, and of course not forgetting the most basic one sometimes it's, it's all about land. You know, if you want to grow a huge field of corn, there is not necessarily the amount of land available for that. And as a result of it you know, there were, there are very strict restrictions, especially in Europe and in other sort of places where I believe that it could be quite challenging. And the, the reason is, is that feedstock should never really compete with food supply. So I'd probably, I'd probably say that those, those are the main sort of regulatory issues. Finally, just one last point to mention. It's again, to do with infrastructure. I mentioned this before, but again storage and transportation, you need to develop very adequate, adequate pathways for this product to get, to market, to be stored, to be handled, to be blended. It cannot just go directly into the fossil fuels chain. And as a result of that, that will likely require further investment, especially if you're scaling up to commercial production. So, I mean, I, I know I've spoken about this the challenges, but, you know, if I was to advise our listeners as to, you know, how to approach this it kind of depends on what stage they're at in terms of their development. But of course, first of all you know, take a look at your feedstock supply. We'll probably say that, you know, Intertek can support you in terms of you know, guessing the right ISCC certifications or CORSIA certifications. Again, it depends on what's being produced, but of course, we need to have the the right certifications around reach as well, especially if the product is synthetic after those hurdles are passed you know, we can discuss in terms of testing and, and quality to ensure that your product is on spec and what is expected. And if not, we'll guide you and consult you through it. And then of course you know, a lot of our customers will take that to their board of directors and you know, seek you know investment, further investment to, you know, go up to pilot plant stage and then commercial stages. So, and the good thing is that Intertek has the right people, the right experts, the right resources, and the right global presence to support our customers to scale up successfully. So that is definitely a very positive message.
Caitlin Connell:This brings us to the end of part one of our Renewable Fuels Challenges and Innovations discussion. Thank you both for sharing your insights and expertise. It's clear that while the road ahead is filled with challenges, the potential for innovation and sustainable future is limitless. That's a wrap for today's episode of Assurance Action. We hope you enjoyed part one of our deep dive into the world of renewable fuels with Mike and Liam. If you found this discussion insightful, please be sure to subscribe, leave a review and share it with your network. Stay tuned for part two of our discussion on renewable fuels and more conversations that drive us toward a cleaner greener tomorrow. Thank you.